Posts Tagged: agnostic


23
Feb 09

Atheist vs Christian: Final Question

I wish I could devote more time to this discussion as even though comments were non-existent, I have had hundreds of readers during this series. I may look to continue this at a later day.

For now, I close with one last question. It’s not from both perspectives as previous posts, but this is my formerly-atheist-now-Christian perspective as a final (two-part) question for atheists.

Question: If Darwin’s evolution encompasses constantly evolving in order for the survival of the fittest to be true, where does that leave us as human beings and at the top of the food chain? Why are those creatures at the bottom of the food chain not evolving to move up the ladder still?

As an atheist, I truly believed that science pointed to proof that we are a part of an evolutionary cycle. We started from a primordial soup and from cellular growth have become who we are today. Even if science supports this in your mind, is it reasonable?

We as humans are the top of the food chain. We are the most intelligent of beings on this earth. However, once we die we do nothing to contribute back to the cycle. We are either cremated and put into urns or buried in caskets protecting us from the elements. With us, the cycle stops. Everywhere else in creation, creatures have more purpose other than being takers of the land. For example, a bat eats mosquitoes. It helps to control the mosquito population. It drops feces on the ground which helps fertilize it for sustaining plant life. When the bat dies, it either temporarily becomes food for another creature, or it’s remains decompose and fertilize the ground. Birds eat fruit and carry the seeds of that fruit to other areas and deposits them through their droppings so that the trees can continue growing. As with the bat, when the bird dies it either gets eaten by another creature or decomposes and acts as fertilizer.

A humans, we eat plants and animals and it is just to sustain ourselves. We don’t pass seeds along and our waste isn’t used as fertilizer. When we die we serve no additional purpose.

As I think about this cycle, it really makes no sense. We, the most intelligent creation on earth live a life pleasing to us, robbing our environment of life and dumping back into it pollutants and toxins which could possible wipe us out in the future through depletion of the ozone layer, and then we die. Seriously, that is a depressing thought!

Additionally, if evolution was about our survival and our continuation to be the fittest creatures we can be, why do we have such individualized things as fingerprints? Fingerprints are not things that we share with other creatures. It is not part of an evolutionary process as it started with us and ends with us. Even amongst us as human beings, no two individuals can possible have the same fingerprints. As random as you want to make the odds to be, we have had enough people on the face of the earth over time that statistically it should be possible to find two people with the same fingerprints. However, it hasn’t happened and it never will!

Darwin couldn’t explain our unique fingerprints, but as a species, why must we be unique? In the animal kingdom, there are many animals that look identical and the only differentiator is there scent. For us, even identical twins will have some attribute that allows us to tell them apart. If God created us uniquely as individuals with an individual purpose and an individual journey, being able to see that through identifying factors such as our appearance, our unique fingerprints and irises helps us understand that. There is no scientific or evolutionary basis for why we always have individual fingerprints or irises. These serve no purpose to help us propagate our species for survival.

Another thing is that for as advanced as we are, we are some of the most helpless of all creatures at birth. When a horse gives birth, the colt comes out of the womb and shortly thereafter stands on it’s own and walks/runs. When a whale gives birth the calf comes out being able to swim and recognize the language of it’s mother. However, for us our babies come out of the womb totally helpless. They can’t talk or understand language, they can’t walk or run. If left to their own devices, they would just stay in one place and cry continuously. Anyone could come and snatch them away. How does having such helpless offspring confirm our standing as the most-fit creatures for survival on earth?

If God wants us to know him and share that love with others, when we have children we are forced to be in that position whether we like it or not. I’m sure momma horses love their colts and momma whales love their calves, but their offspring are fairly self-sufficient upon arriving into this world, while our babies don’t walk or communicate until after their first twelve months of existence. They are completely dependent upon their mothers to be nurtured. Without the love of others, our babies would not make it in this world.

If you are an atheist and love your children the way I love my daughters, then we have a common bond. Our only difference is that I believe God called me to love him and that he loves me unconditionally. If you could love and be loved more profoundly through a relationship with God and know that you have a greater purpose than just to take from the world and then die and be cremated or buried, isn’t it worth doing what you can to find out if that is the design of this life? I did, and I am eternally grateful for knowing that it’s not just about about me and my meaningless life.

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11
Feb 09

Atheist vs Christian: Is God A Murderer?

As contradicting as this will sound to some of you (in light of the title of this post), let me start off by confirming that I am an evangelical Christian. I do believe that the Bible is the infallible word of God. However, there are some challenging verses I am going to share with you today. First, I start with a post by Daniel Florien (Christian-turned-atheist) of the Unreasonable Faith blog:

    God Loves You and Wants To Rip You Open

    Here’s an encouraging bible verse to start your day:

    I will fall upon [my people]
    like a bear robbed of her cubs;
    I will tear open their breast,
    and there I will devour them like a lion,
    as a wild beast would rip them open.

    I will destroy you, O Israel,
    who can help you?

    (Hosea 13:4-9)

    What a kind, loving father the God of the Bible is! Let’s praise him for his wisdom in threatening to rip up his children like a wild beast!

    Don’t you want to spend eternity with this charming being? Won’t you accept Jesus into your heart before his Father rips it out?

Based on the verse as it’s written, most rational people would say no. In the context of Daniel’s post even I would say no. Does this confirm God is a murderer and therefore must not be loving?

Let me share another interesting passage with you. During my time in seminary I participated in a group exercise. The wonderful thing about my seminary is that we were challenged to do things in unconventional ways, all with the intent that the Bible & God could reconcile issues. The exercise was to be part of a group of Christians that could argue the position of being pro-choice on the issue of a woman’s right to choose to abort a fetus. While researching Scripture, I came across a rather convincing verse:

    Hosea 13:16-
    …They will fall by the sword;
    their little ones will be dashed to the ground,
    their pregnant women ripped open.

God was speaking through the prophet Hosea and specifically describing abortion. As you can imagine, after I argued with that verse, there was silence in the room.

Does this verse mean that God condones abortion? Is this a black eye to the pro-life argument propogated by most Christians?

Out of context, it’s relatively easy to find specific verses that can sound conflicting to the idea of a loving and merciful God. It’s no different than when someone has a conversation and states something that taken out of context could be derogatory. In the context of the conversation it is reasonable and not worth mentioning. The same thing happens with the Bible. Unfortunately, the difference with the Bible is that many Christians can’t defend it well as they have not done the necessary study to learn the context. Additionally, most atheists (regardless of whether they were once Christian or not) don’t care to hear that there is some context to the verse other than what their two eyes can read on the page.

As a Christian, I have to respect that the atheist isn’t obligated to believe my interpretation of the Bible based on historical and cultural contexts that aren’t understood through reading the words at face value. However, as an atheist that claims to have an open mind, wouldn’t it help you to look at things from my point of view before you challenge my statements? Just as you use science to defend your positions, shouldn’t I be entitled to use history and the culture at the time of the writing to defend my position?

I will clarify the position of God being a murderer in my next post.

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10
Feb 09

Atheist vs Christian: California’s Proposition 8

Going to start things off with an example of a video made by some well-known Hollywood celebrities regarding California’s Proposition 8 and how it’s become a religious issue. I’m asking for all that view this video to have an open mind and then to consider the context with which it is shown.

Atheists that watch the video will probably believe that it is a very accurate depiction of Christians, while (most) Christians will be offended.

    Question for atheists: Have you ever read Leviticus? Do you understand the context of that book and why it was written?

    Question for Christians: Have you ever read Leviticus? Do you understand the context of that book and why it was written?

Unfortunately, there is a lack of understanding on both sides. Many times we end up just repeating the same arguments with the same disappointing results.

    To the atheist: Did you know that when you just cite stuff you hear from others or read from the internet without actually doing the research yourself and learning on your own, you are no better than the Christian that you say has no basis for their faith and is just a believer because their parents raised them in church.

    To the Christian: Did you know that when you cite stuff you hear in church or read (without deeper study) from the Bible that you are doing exactly what the atheists claim you are doing?

Do you all realize that California’s Proposition 8 is not a religious issue? It is about rewriting the California Constitution to edit the language that currently shows that marriage is only recognized as being between one man and one woman. It’s a matter of law, and really not about morals or religion. Why does it have to become a religious issue? Opponents of Prop 8 cite that they don’t want to be governed by the Bible and should be free to live without discrimination; Christians want to make this a morality issue citing that the Bible clearly states that marriage was intended to be between one man and one woman.

I’ll go more into the dynamics of why this is not a religious issue in a later post.

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9
Feb 09

Atheist vs Christian: Smackdown!

Shhhh. If you pause and be silent you will be able to hear it. That sound of a voice in the distance that seems to be getting louder and louder. Can you hear it? It sounds like this: “Let’s get ready to rumblllllllllllllllllle!”

When an atheist and a Christian engage in a conversation, this is the sound that we seem to hear before we begin the discussion. It’s as if each of has challenged the other to a smackdown of heavenly or earthly proportions.

To me, this sound is deafening and I’m going to do my part to mediate. For the atheists I declare this statement: I am not going to try and convert you. I will not use cliches to pick away at your intelligence. My life’s purpose is not to see you become a Christian or to proselytize. For the Christians that may read this, let me clarify my position to you as well: I am not here to help you stumble or to challenge your theology. I do not proclaim that I am the sole bearer of truth or to represent that I know Jesus any better than you do. My goal is not to criticize you. I know that I have a plank in my eye that is probably bigger than the speck in your eye.

Basically, I am tired of seeing atheists and Christians getting ready to rumble and regurgitating the same old tired statements in defense of their positions, which ultimately get us no where. The sad truth is that Christians can’t really engage atheists in a relevant way unless they have been in their shoes (not always literally, but figuratively) and atheists can’t debate Christians unless they understand the true Christian perspective. Once this has been established between the two sides, some clarity can begin. Maybe neither side will win any “converts,” but possibly both sides can leave the table with mutual respect for each other. Rather then ending the battle in a tie, I propose that we lock the doors to the arena so that we don’t step into the ring at all.

Throughout the week I’ll be posting some things that I hope will lend some understanding to both sides of the argument and help us bridge the divide that causes us to be antagonistic and hateful of one another. May it help you in your journey as a Christian or an atheist and may we each realize that the other has value in society and are both good and moral people, even if we may not agree on God, Jesus, or the Bible.

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